Ruth: Welcome to this special Green Alliance podcast. Buckle up, as we’re going to transport ourselves to Wales to talk about how environmental ambition is going to fare in the new Welsh Parliament, Senedd Cymru. I’m delighted to be joined by two brilliant campaigners, Bethan Sayed from Climate Cymru and Annie Smith from RSPB Cymru. A warm welcome to you both.

A number of key nature and climate decisions are going to be taken over the next four years. We have a new government led by Plaid Cymru for the first time, and a much larger Senedd with a drastic change in membership. We know there’s a lot of work to do because Wales is ranked 224 out of 240 countries in the Biodiversity Intactness Index, putting it in the bottom 10%. And we also know that we’re lagging behind on the international target to protect 30% of land and sea for nature by 2030, and the current reckoning has Wales just at 2.14% of land in terms of meeting that criteria. So all’s about to change. Bethan, I’d love to start with you and get your reflections on what you’re expecting the main differences to be in this Senedd.

Bethan: Thank you, and thank you for hosting this podcast. It’s great to be here alongside Annie. I think it’s all new territory for us all at the moment. But I think that with so many new MSs and with more MSs, I see this as a really good opportunity for the enhancement of advocacy and the way in which MSs can engage in their communities more, because they will potentially not have as many pressures on a parliamentary level. They’ll be able to be in their communities more. They’ll be able to take part in those activities that we arrange, as Climate Cymru and as other organisations do across the country, in a more cohesive way. And then even on a parliamentary level, I feel that there will be much more in-depth scrutiny. And just to finish, you know, it’s not going to be an easy time. It is a polarised Senedd, so regardless of these changes, we’re going to see potentially some hostility in some areas and some challenges around the areas that Climate Cymru are passionate about in relation to renewables, nature, and so forth. So it’s how we manoeuvre through that together and how we come through it to bring people with us.

Ruth: Thanks. What about you, Annie? Do you see it in the same way, or are there any differences from your point of view?

Annie: Thanks, Ruth. As Bethan said, it’s great to be here with both of you. Bethan’s really covered it. Setting out at the beginning of the Senedd, it’s interesting to have this situation where not only is it a Senedd that has increased in size, but it’s almost 50% people who are brand new to us as NGOs working with members of the Senedd, and to their communities. So it’s going to be really interesting, and hopefully we’ll see some new champions emerge for environmental issues as we go forward.

Ruth: Brilliant. I’d love to come back to champions in a bit, but Annie, I’ll come to you first this time. Given that changed context, what are your priorities for this Senedd going to be? And just to remind listeners, we’re looking at a four-year term. Where would you like to see things get to by the end of those four years?

Annie: Sure. Well, this Senedd takes us all the way to 2030, which is obviously a date of significance internationally for biodiversity. So we do really need to see meaningful progress on our biodiversity and climate goals during the next four years. But I’ll start off by just mentioning the unfinished business from the last Senedd, if you like, because one of the last things we saw the sixth Senedd do was pass the new Environment Act, the Environment (Principles, Governance and Biodiversity Targets) Act, which includes a number of requirements to get the frameworks in place to drive delivery forward. So legally binding biodiversity targets need to be brought forward within the next couple of years, and the new environmental governance body, the Office of Environmental Governance Wales, also needs to be set up within the first couple of years of this Senedd, in order to really make sure that they can be backed up by the plans and the investment that are needed to drive delivery forward towards these targets.

Ruth: Thanks, Annie. What about you, Bethan? What are your greatest priorities for this new Senedd?

Bethan: I suppose for us, our priorities as a network of different organisations, be it trade unions, businesses, yourself as nature organisations, is backing shared solutions — and that’s what I mean by backing the brilliant things that are happening across our communities in Wales. Climate change has been talked about using language that many people perhaps don’t identify with, but when we talk about how we can make our homes warm by insulating them better, retrofitting them, bringing down bills, that means something to people. It’s about the type of food we want to see on people’s plates, so local food that is ethically sourced. It’s about looking at farmers like Hywel Morgan, who chairs the Nature Friendly Farming Network, who’s transitioning his family farm away from expensive chemicals to looking at soil health and planting miles of hedges to restore the land. And it’s about community energy and how we can reap the benefits of that community energy as opposed to it being extracted from Wales. So a lot of those things are all important, but they’re only going to work together. For Climate Cymru, not one policy sits on its own. It’s how they all interweave — that’s a success for us over four years.

Ruth: And is it fair to say it’s been quite a quiet start? Obviously the government formed and then appointed the cabinet. We’re almost at the point of summer recess. It doesn’t feel like there’s been lots of policy announcements. Do you expect things to really pick up after the summer recess in terms of being clearer about what the new government’s priorities are?

Bethan: Well, we’ve got the 100 Days Plan from Plaid Cymru, which was announced before the election. So I think they felt that was a place for us as campaigners and NGOs to look, in regards to the Nature Recovery Plan, in regards to what they want to do with Tradan Gwyrdd, in enhancing community renewables across Wales. In regards to childcare, they’ve made some announcements that will affect families across the length and breadth of Wales. They’ve said they want to prioritise cost of living. So I think that’s where they’re going to be wanting us to focus and comment. But I think, you know, having been an MS myself, we do want to give the grace to these new cabinet ministers to learn their brief, to really get into the weeds about what they want to do, and to meet with people like ourselves who can inform them with expertise and knowledge, and get on the ground to meet grassroots organisations. So I’m not too concerned right now. In fact, I’d be more worried if they were coming out with a flurry of different things without listening to us. So yeah, I think I’m quite comfortable with that.

Ruth: Happy with that, Annie? Was there much in the 100-day plan for nature, or are you expecting to see a lot more from maybe early autumn onwards?

Annie: Bethan referred to the commitment in the 100 Days Plan to start working on a new climate and nature plan, which is a positive commitment. And it’s not a job that I would actually want to see completed within 100 days. But I think getting around the table with the third sector and with communities will be really critical, and I think getting that going quickly will be important. So yes — in terms of that question about whether it’s been a quiet start, it’s been a quiet period with the election dominating, obviously. But I’m sure we can look forward to things ramping up fairly quickly.

Ruth: And the new minister who’s going to be in charge of nature and climate, in fact all things environmental, is Llŷr Gruffydd, who has a very wide portfolio. I think his official title is Minister for Rural Affairs and Sustainability, but there’s a lot of detail under that big list. So he’s not new to the world of environment — he chaired the lead Senedd scrutiny committee on the environment for a number of years before the election. Bethan, you mentioned that this Senedd is going to see some polarisation politically, and that we’ve got a lot of new members who are perhaps not as versed in Senedd processes or some of the technical issues we’ve been talking about. Are those challenges or opportunities? And where do you see the biggest challenges for your agendas over the next four years lying?

Bethan: I think it’s both. It’s challenges and opportunities. Challenges in that if you don’t know the structures, it’s really hard to just jump in and know exactly where you’re going. But I’m led to understand that, unlike when I first started, the Senedd does have very good training and initial setup opportunities for MSs to really get to grips with what they’re doing, how they can get used to committee life, and understand what legislation entails. And we shouldn’t underestimate the new MSs. I think there was an article in Nation.Cymru that said a large percentage of them are very rooted in their communities. Many have been councillors before. Many have set up their own businesses and work in NGOs like ourselves. So I’m confident they might bring a different set of expertise to these committees that might not have been there before. But there’s always a but, isn’t there. We are going to see challenges from Reform in relation to some of the agendas we are passionate about, which is why we need to engage with them and find common areas of interest, because we don’t want to see legislation or policies being blocked. We want to see progress. Four years is not a very long time to get things through. So I’m probably more concerned on issues like net zero and renewables than I am with nature, because we have seen research where a lot of Reform supporters are very supportive of nature and biodiversity recovery. So it’s just appealing to their best nature, appealing to areas that they are interested in. Otherwise we’re going to see a very fractious and difficult four years ahead. Having all these plans from Plaid Cymru is really good, as Annie was saying, but we need to see them implemented. We don’t just want plans for the sake of plans. Getting that through parliamentary scrutiny is really important, which is why it’s vital that we meet with those new MSs over the summer now when we’ve got the time and space to do it — for example, during Great Big Green Week that’s coming up. It’s a massive opportunity to get MSs to our events and to speak to them on that grassroots level.

Ruth: Where are you expecting the biggest challenges, Annie, to lie over the next four years? I’m asking you to rub your crystal ball there.

Annie: We can’t emphasise enough what a great challenge there is ahead of us to deliver on net zero and to reverse biodiversity loss. There were some really positive commitments around nature-based solutions and so on in Plaid’s manifesto. The biggest policy at play is going to be the Sustainable Farming Scheme, and that is going to be an enormous journey — further developing that scheme so it can really support farmers to deliver for nature and climate and produce food sustainably. And of course, integrating biodiversity considerations into the planning and deployment of energy in a way that’s developed with communities and industry. We’ve got great commitments for seabird conservation in Plaid Cymru’s manifesto, which is really welcome, but that depends on getting marine planning to work so that we can really protect the areas that are most important for seabirds and other marine wildlife. It’s the right starting point that this integration will happen — but it is not easy to get right.

Bethan: And I think the point that Ruth made about the long list of responsibilities that Llŷr Gruffydd has is something I would flag with some concern, considering that there’s no deputy minister there. It’s not that we want to complain and find fault in the government straightaway, but it is quite telling that, for example, in health there are two deputy ministers under Mabon ap Gwynfor, and that there is nobody under or parallel to Llŷr Gruffydd on this agenda. Now, I know what the government is saying — that they’ve got a Minister for Government Effectiveness, and that there’s going to be responsibility in every cabinet ministerial position on this agenda, which I totally agree with. But I am also a bit concerned about the level and depth of work for one cabinet minister to do. That list isn’t under anybody else, it’s under his. So I think that’s something we will be wanting to flag, but constructively — saying, “How can we help you? How can we bring our expertise as Climate Cymru to the table when we can see the level of work you will need to do over the next four years in regards to rural resilience, sustainability, farming, nature, renewable energy and such?” That’s a big, big brief. And I know some of that sits with Adam Price as well, but yeah, it’s how that’s going to be done.

Ruth: I agree with all of that. Although I think for my own view, looking ahead, the Minister for Sustainability will probably have to look at his own sustainability somewhere down the road, and I really wouldn’t be surprised if a deputy minister or two isn’t created a little bit further into the Senedd. But we’ll see how we go on that. Annie, you mentioned integration, and that’s really been on my mind, because one of the important things that the new environmental governance laws that we all worked on together has introduced is it now makes putting environmental considerations into policymaking a requirement. It isn’t optional. It’s something that has to be done when new Welsh government policy is made, when it’s changed, and if it’s ever going to be dropped. The environment has got to be considered. So what are the differences you’d be expecting to see from policymaking, given that putting the environment into that process is now the law? Bethan, start with you on that one.

Bethan: Well, I think that means looking at, for example, if you’re going to have a big economic development plan, you want to build a new arena — this is just me plucking an idea out of thin air — then how does that impact the environment around it, the planning that goes into it, the nature that it affects? How we use our resources, what types of jobs are they, is it ethically procured, are they local jobs? So all of those things have to come into the mix when you are considering a new initiative in any given department. The same for culture — we’ve seen, haven’t we, challenges to nature when live music events go ahead in our capital city. How is that going to play a part in considerations for future programming and future policy development? I only see this as a good thing because it does make you take a step back and think: it may be good for the economy, but is it good for other elements of our government programme? Maybe not, so we have to go back to the table and revise it somewhat. It will mean taking more time over things, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that’s a bad thing if a better decision can be made at the end of the process, in my view.

Ruth: And actually, one of the first consultations the new Welsh government is going to have to do on the environment is about its approach to how this new environmental principles and integration duty is going to work in practice, and I think we’re expecting to see that over the next coming weeks. So one to look out for and come back to. Another really important thing that the Environmental Governance Act did is it set up a new green watchdog, the Office of Environmental Governance Wales, or OEGW. We’ve all waited a really long time for this. We’re going to have to wait a little bit longer for the body to actually exist — I think the Welsh government has 24 months, as you said, Annie, to set up the body. But once it gets going, what do you expect its priorities should be? Where would you like to see it focusing its effort? I know we’ll all be looking out to make sure that its independence and its funding are properly protected. There’s a lot of environmental issues in Wales that it could be thinking about, but do you have a view at this stage on where it should be focusing? Start with you, Annie.

Annie: I think it’s a broad canvas, and there are a lot of possibilities. I feel like we have had some focus in the last couple of years around the implementation of nature conservation laws. There’s widespread political agreement, I think probably across the Senedd, about the need to clean up the rivers — I would very much expect concerns about water quality to be raised with the new body, for example. And of course, there are new processes: we’ve got the new biodiversity targets that have to come in, and a plan that has to be built around them towards the wider global goal of restoring biodiversity by 2050, which needs to give detail about what ministers are going to do and when. And we really need to know: is that ambition sufficient, and is it happening? So I think there’s going to be a lot of scope for scrutiny by the new body to support the Senedd and others.

Ruth: And when will those new biodiversity targets be ready? I know there’s a legal deadline in the act, but remind us what that timetable looks like.

Annie: So, like the OEGW setup, the legal deadline is two years after royal assent, so that takes us to April 2028.

Ruth: And both us and the new Senedd, I’m sure, will be wanting to hold Welsh Government’s feet to the fire on both of those processes. Bethan, anything for you on the new watchdog’s to-do list, thinking ahead to 24 months when it’s here and ready to go?

Bethan: I’m just going to be honest — there’s cynicism, isn’t there, when new bodies are set up and public funding goes into that. We’ve seen it through the election campaign, some parties wanting to scrap a lot of these things. So for me, the most important thing is to make sure this works, that it has teeth, and that it becomes a people’s watchdog in a way — that people feel empowered by it. So if there are local walking groups who can see a river turning brown with pollution or an absolute mess being made of a local habitat by a project that shouldn’t be happening, how can they feel that if they want to report that, they’re listened to, that processes can be followed, that they’re not just a tick-box exercise in relation to that consultation or engagement? That if they do report something, they do see that change because this body is now in operation. Like Annie said, there are lots of different responsibilities of this new body, and I think it’s for us to really make sure that it works, that we work with them to support them, but also make sure that it provides value for money and that we ask of it what we are expecting of it in relation to enforcement and all those things that were the rationale for setting it up in the first place — things that weren’t working in other bodies here in Wales. So yeah, those are the top lines from me.

Ruth: Finally then, the environment doesn’t protect itself, does it? It needs watchdogs and it needs champions, and I’m really grateful that both of you, as brilliant champions of the Welsh environment, have joined us in this discussion today. Thinking ahead to the Senedd, we’ve talked about the fact that we’ve got lots of new members. A lot of the strongest environmental champions in the last Senedd either didn’t stand again or left the Senedd, and a couple have got new jobs that have taken them away from frontline environment roles. Huw Irranca-Davies, who was the environment minister and before that the environment committee chair, is now Presiding Officer. And Delyth Jewell, another strong environmental champion in the last Senedd who spoke very passionately about the issues we’ve been talking about, has got a different brief away from the environment. I’m sure they’ll both find ways to champion the environment from their new jobs. But who do you see as being, if it’s possible to say at this stage, the new environmental champions in the seventh Senedd? A really hard question, but I’m going to ask it anyway. Bethan?

Bethan: I’m going to answer it differently, if that’s okay. I feel that we need to move past the idea of just having environmental champions who sit in the climate or environment job title. People are asking me already who’s on the climate change committee. We don’t even know if that’s going to be a committee yet. I feel like the real champions of this Senedd will be the ones sitting on the health committees, the housing committees, or the finance committees, looking at how we can address cold homes, looking at how we can consider climate adaptation in the NHS. You know, we’ve got these buildings where people are either too warm or too hot when they’re getting treatment. Welsh farmers and how they work with nature. So for me, I don’t want to just put one person in one box. It’s got to be across the board. And now is our opportunity to engage, to get out there talking to the new MSs — whether it’s Great Big Green Week or community events, community surgeries, we’ve got a set of marketplace stalls soon in the Senedd where you can meet with new MSs. Using these mechanisms to really engage with the new MSs and see where their passion lies. That’s really what I’d want to do instead of naming names at this stage and potentially alienating people by doing so.

Ruth: Good points.

Annie: Well, I think that’s spot on. The opportunity to see nature brought through considerations of the fabric of the built environment, and the connectedness that people have with biodiversity and the way that can support their health and wellbeing, and the development of farming policy, planning policy, to make sure that nature is part of what is delivered from that — that’s absolutely critical. So we’ll need champions across the parties and across the committees in the Senedd to make that happen. And as Bethan has already said, the NGOs are here to help members make that case. Whatever the debate is, it’s unlikely nature is irrelevant, so we can help bring that to the floor of the Senedd and give it a presence in all those debates.

Ruth: Thanks to both of you for joining us today. That’s all we’ve got time for, but it’s been brilliant to hear your reflections. Thanks for everything you have done to promote Welsh environment and climate issues, and even bigger thanks for everything you’re about to do in the next Senedd. So diolch yn fawr.

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