Host: Emily Carr, policy adviser, Green Alliance

Guests:
Stuart Dossett, senior policy adviser, Green Alliance
Sam Pordale, Screen Share digital inclusion scheme device recipient
Megan Barrett, chief executive officer at digital inclusion charity Power 2 Connect
Natasha Early, business development and partnerships manager at Good Things Foundation

Introduction: The UK’s digital divide and e-waste challenge

Emily Carr (Host): Welcome to the Green Alliance podcast. We are the charity and think tank dedicated to achieving ambitious leadership for the environment. I’m Emily Carr, Policy Adviser at Green Alliance.

Last week was a big moment for digital inclusion in the UK. The government launched a new IT reuse charter aimed at getting more phones, tablets and laptops into the hands of people who need them. It’s one of the first tangible steps from the Digital Inclusion Action Plan announced earlier this year and a really welcome sign that action is starting to follow. Why does this matter? Well, millions of people across the UK are still digitally excluded, lacking access to the devices, internet connection and skills they need to participate in everyday life.

At the same time, we’re facing a growing e-waste problem with usable technology often ending up in the bin rather than being reused. So at the start of this year, we published a report exploring how better device redistribution could help tackle both these challenges. It’s encouraging to see that many of the themes we raised are starting to gain traction from last week’s charter to Minister Peter Carr’s clear commitment to making progress.

There’s plenty of reason for optimism, but there’s also room and a need for even more ambition. Work on a wider circular economy strategy is ticking along in the background and this is going to be critical in shaping how we deal with products after the end of their first lives, including electronics. So the big question for today is what needs to happen next? To explore that, I’m joined by some of the people who know this issue best, from the charities working on the ground to those involved in designing the new charter.

But first to set the scene, I spoke with Stuart Dossett, senior policy adviser at Green Alliance and co-author of our report on digital inclusion and e-waste to set out the big issues at play and why this moment matters.

Stuart Dossett: So e-waste and digital exclusion are two really significant problems for the UK. The UK is a particularly bad offender when it comes to e-waste. We are second only to Norway in the amount of e-waste that we produce per person per year and we generate more than three times the global average. Yet many of these devices that we’re throwing away would be easily reusable if they were just taken into the correct schemes.

From a digital exclusion perspective, estimates are that one in 14 households have no access to the internet at home and up to 5.8 million people could be suffering from digital exclusion by 2032 if we don’t take corrective action.

What made this worse was that when we were writing our report, the government had seemed to repeatedly overlook a solution to both of these problems, namely device redistribution. So your e-waste policy had very little to say about the possibility of using devices to improve digital inclusion and vice versa. Despite this lack of policy, the ecosystem of device redistribution initiatives did seem to be growing and you have these national schemes like the Good Things Foundation’s National Device Bank as well as really hyper-local efforts run by and for local communities.

Yeah, so through talking to all of these organisations I guess some of the biggest barriers that we found to their ability to scale up their efforts and to help people move out of digital exclusion was really around an insufficient supply of usable devices. But as I mentioned before and what we found is that there are so many devices out there that could be used, reused and got into the hands of people. For example, there is a charity called the National Device Bank that currently only receives enough devices to be able to meet one-fifth of the demand that it gets from people who are suffering from digital exclusion because they don’t have a device at home that they can use.

Through those conversations we found that this supply gap is probably underpinned by three main factors. So the first is just that there is not sufficient incentive for devices to be donated to these charities. So in particular with businesses, it’s often incredibly reliant on a single motivated individual to change the practice within a business and get that business donating devices once they are finished with them, be it their laptops or their mobile phones, rather than sending those devices off to be recycled.

The second factor is around poor quality or unusable devices being donated, many of which can’t be repaired. So the charities are actually receiving devices but there’s nothing they can do with them and they just have to end up sending them off into waste stream and those devices go off and get recycled. And then the third factor is around concerns around data security which discourage individuals and organisations from donating those devices even when they may have had the good intentions and wanted to do so.

So I guess despite some great innovation and impact that we saw on the ground and through the organisations and the charities we spoke to, we’ve kind of reached a sticking point where we still have a big e-waste problem and we still have a big digital exclusion problem and to overcome this it’s really going to require some meaningful government intervention. And I think that intervention has to a certain extent started and we’ve seen that since our report’s come out the government’s taken some positive steps forward. I think the most notable of those really is that there is now a new digital inclusion action plan which is a great first step.

Part of what was particularly significant to us is that it recognises that there is a connection between digital exclusion and e-waste and also understands that reusing and redistributing devices is going to be key to addressing both of those challenges. It’s not just the work of one department, there’s lots of cross-governmental working with a ministerial group with lots of different people involved and there’s lots of really concrete actions included in the plan as the name suggests. So there’s a digital inclusion innovation fund which is going to be helping some of those local projects, the government are piloting a scheme to reuse their own IT assets and there’s a new device donation charter being developed.

So I think the direction of travel here is really promising with this charter in particular showing potential to make a big difference by getting businesses to donate and offering them the guidance they need to do that more confidently.

Personal impact: wow device redistribution changes lives

Emily Carr: So now that we have a sense of the bigger picture when it comes to device redistribution it’s worth zooming in to look in a bit more detail at the real impact that schemes like these can have on people’s lives. I’m joined now by Sam who received a laptop through one of these schemes.

Sam: Yeah hello, thanks for having me today.

Emily Carr: So I know that you received a laptop a while back from ScreenShare, could you tell us a bit about how that happened, how did you hear about the scheme and what was your experience like?

Sam: When I first arrived to the UK as an asylum seeker I had no phone and no laptop so that means I had no access to digital devices and I wanted to apply for university. Whilst I was applying for university I used to go to the library each day for an hour and 30 minutes when I had access to computers in the library but I couldn’t continue going to the library because I was only allowed to use the laptops for one hour and 30 minutes and sometimes 60 minutes per day and whilst I was applying University of Warwick agreed to give me a scholarship if I submit an essay and the essay was due on Monday and on the weekend the library was closed.

I contacted the charity that was supporting me to apply for university that I don’t have a computer and how do I do this. They referred me to ScreenShare which at that time ScreenShare very fast, very quickly sent me a laptop and over the weekend I was able to write my essay and fill out my applications and by Monday morning I submitted my essay which now I’m a scholar at the University of Warwick. If I didn’t have this laptop I wouldn’t be here today so it massively changed my life.

I started volunteering and stocked up some advice and I started helping other asylum seekers with my laptop to apply for universal credit and at the same time learnt a lot. This laptop opened up an entire world to me. Before that I didn’t even have access to something simple as watching a film. I didn’t have access to Netflix when I was home. Every night I just sat at home doing nothing and when I got the laptop I had something to do. I could do research I could help people and volunteer at the same time and study.

Emily Carr: What are the assumptions and misunderstandings that you encounter when you talk to people about this?

Sam: When I talk to people and when I talk about issues that refugees are facing digital exclusion is the least, like it’s below, like end of the list. They never think about it. There’s a lot of opportunities available for asylum seekers and refugees but they never think about how these people gonna have access to these opportunities. They say oh these people don’t want to integrate into the community but how do I do that? I remember when I was kind of navigating through Coventry I didn’t have authority to check the Google map or even online. What’s out there? What is available to me to do?

Emily Carr: At Green Alliance we often turn sort of personal stories into political and policy stories. That’s what we do. Our feeling is usually that it’s government that needs to be doing more but what do you think? Do you think policy makers and politicians need to be acting more on this issue?

Sam: Yes, it would make a lot of difference in for example in asylum seekers’ life. When you apply for asylum in UK the application through Home Office is going to be online or through emails. How are you going to do this when you don’t have access to a phone or laptop? When Home Office requested a personal statement from me I didn’t have a computer and I had to walk two hours, 14 minutes from the hotel where I was to Red Cross so I could get the computer and write down my personal statement. For a person who is going through a lot it will make a huge difference if at that time, for example, if he could have submitted that personal statement through a letter or at least there was some sort of technology available in the hotel for that person to kind of do that very quickly. But the whole asylum system is in a way designed that they automatically think that asylum seekers have access to a phone and a laptop and I think that should be removed.

When you see an asylum seeker you should assume the worst that they have access to nothing. Whilst I was volunteering here in Warwick to help support asylum seekers to integrate into the community the government shifted from personal identification to e-visa. A lot of asylum seekers first of all they didn’t have access to computer and a phone to change the identification to e-visa, simply that at the same time they didn’t know how to apply.

So digital education needs to be there and the policies that we’re going to enact for asylum seekers, the digital experience should be considered. When they enact a policy they also take consideration on how it’s going to impact all communities. A lot of the policies these days that were enacted impacted asylum seeker communities very heavily.

There’s not a lot of advocacy and kind of voice that there is a digital exclusion for asylum seekers or refugees. It makes everything harder for these individuals to integrate. Like we expect them to work but how they can work if they don’t have access to the opportunities and even applying for a job for an interview usually they’re online now.

A lot of people that I’ve met whilst I was volunteering in Warwick, we found a lot of individuals who were so passionate about certain topics or they wanted to apply to study engineering or medicine but the first thing they said to me I don’t have a laptop. That alone can make a huge difference in their confidence.

On the ground: charity perspectives and challenges

Emily Carr: Getting devices into the hands of people who need them wouldn’t be possible without the charities and local organisations working on the ground to do just that. I’m joined now by Megan Barrett from Power to Connect to talk about her work and what she’s seeing in the digital inclusion space.

Megan Barrett: Power to Connect, we’re a digital inclusion charity that’s based in the London borough of Wandsworth. Our mission is to ensure that every resident has access to connectivity, technology and digital skills that they need to thrive in an increasingly digital society.

So we do this by a few different activities and kind of the core of what we do is device redistribution. So we collect unused devices, so laptops, tablets, smartphones. We have an amazing team of IT volunteers who will completely wipe and refurbish these devices and then they get distributed out to people in need in our community.

So we work with organisations like schools, food banks, citizens advice, community groups, all who help refer people that are in need of a device and aren’t able to access it themselves. And alongside that we also do digital skills training, so providing group workshops, one-to-one support, covering essential digital skills, digital confidence, online safety, financial literacy and we also provide data packages as well. So we’re really looking at providing that wraparound digital inclusion support.

We know that digital exclusion leads to poorer educational outcomes, limited job opportunities, social isolation, it reduces access to healthcare, support services. So our work is really aimed to address these challenges by helping provide the tools and skills that people need nowadays to thrive in the digital world.

Emily Carr: So what would you say are some of the biggest challenges that you’re facing in getting devices out to people and supporting them to become digitally included?

Megan Barrett: Our biggest challenge is a demand versus supply and that comes across in kind of several areas of what we do. You know we’ve seen a big increase in demand for devices at the moment, especially around smartphones and that’s largely due to the cost of living crisis, but getting good quality donations you know is tough and it is a lot of work and we really need devices that are reliable, that are safe, that are still supported by current software. Basically something that genuinely has a second life for someone.

The other side of it is we’re very heavily reliant on volunteers to deliver the work that we do. So from IT volunteers who help us wipe and refurbish devices to transport volunteers who deliver them to our digital skills champions who help build people’s skills and their confidence, you know it’s making sure we have enough volunteers with the right support and that’s really crucial to helping deliver the work that we do.

And finally you know funding, especially when it comes to long-term funding, you know that is vital for helping you know small grassroots charities like Power to Connect grow, help us be sustainable, but also help us to be adaptable, especially when it comes to the evolving needs of our community.

Emily Carr: Evidently there’s kind of a lot of support that is still needed to help do even more and sort of with that in mind I know there has been some good progress recently from government, a couple of exciting announcements and it seems like things are moving in this space, but is there still more that you’d like to see from government?

Megan Barrett: The launch of kind of the government’s digital inclusion action plan was you know a real welcome step and it has been really positive to see this kind of being recognised as a cross-government issue, which it really is.

More could be done around the hardware side of digital inclusion, in particular when it comes to the issue of e-waste as well. It’s a real missed opportunity you know both environmentally and socially, so I think there’s real scope for the government to put pressure on large organisations you know like tech companies, retailers, public sector bodies to implement you know structured programmes for recycling and donating IT equipment to charities, to schools, to community groups.

The role that grassroots organisations play needs to be something that’s better recognised and supported, you know with longer term consistent investment, so many of the people you know most affected by digital exclusion can’t just be handed over a device or pointed to an online course, they really need you know face-to-face support from someone they trust, someone who understands their situation and that is where grassroots community groups come in, you know they know their community, they’re working with them daily, they understand their challenges, so I think you know it’s something that needs to be invested in and it needs the backing to make kind of true inclusion support happen.

Emily Carr: It’s clear you kind of live and breathe digital exclusion work and you’re very much immersed in this all the time, if there was one thing you wanted the policymakers who are now working on this and thinking about it to keep in mind as they’re developing the next steps what would that be?

Megan Barrett: I think the one thing I’d really urge policymakers to keep in mind is that digital exclusion you know it’s almost always tied to other forms of inequality, poverty, isolation, disability, low literacy and it’s not just a technology problem, it’s also a social one, so when you know designing digital inclusion policies please you know don’t assume that access to a device or broadband is enough, for many people it’s about confidence, it’s about trust, it’s about having someone patient there to guide them, that’s why the solutions they need to be human, they need to be local, they need to be long term and invest in the people and places that already have these trusted relationships like charities, like food banks, like community hubs you know because that’s where it is, that’s where the lasting change can happen.

The new charter: a game changing policy initiative

Emily Carr: As we’ve heard it’s been a big year for digital inclusion with the launch of the government’s action plan and as part of that a new device donation charter and one of the organisations behind that charter is the Good Things Foundation and I’m joined now by Natasha Early to talk about what that means in practice and what still needs to happen next.

Natasha Early: At Good Things Foundation through the National Device Bank we’ve been advocating for device reuse for a number of years now yet demand still outstrips supply so even though every estimate of how many devices are out there potentially available for reuse it suggests we could go much much further in meeting that demand we’re still not meeting it, so it was really notable in your Making the Connection report you mentioned three challenges related to meeting demand and I thought that those were really interesting in the context of the charter.

Our belief is that for organisations engaging with the charter we believe it’s got the potential to address those three challenges which is why this feels like such a positive move from the government. So just to take those three challenges one by one, when it comes to incentives the charter provides that recognition of effort and especially if that begins to be linked to procurement frameworks or organisations use it as a tool for reporting against their environmental and social reporting requirements.

When it comes to quality the charter includes reporting of the number of devices that were ultimately suitable for reuse. Now there’s that saying isn’t there that what gets measured gets managed and so I really believe that the reporting creates that potential for analysis and that impetus to act in improve quality of devices that are made available for reuse.

And then the final aspect data security we know from our experience with the National Device Bank data security is one of the biggest concerns from organisations considering this and what I think is great about the charter is that there’s an accompanying playbook that’s been developed in partnership with DSIT, with Deloitte and with Vodafone UK and Good Things Foundation that addresses those questions of security among many other questions that get raised but as case studies are shared from more organisations that have overcome those data security concerns I think that that will encourage other organisations to see and understand that they too can overcome those barriers.

But the most valuable aspect of the charter from our perspective is that it shifts that positioning of device donations out of ad hoc philanthropy so it’s not just about we’ll do a donation here and there the charter is encouraging that embedding of device reuse within standard business practice so by asking businesses that question can we get more life out of this device and in a socially responsible way it’s offering a framework for building it into business as usual which for us feels great.

And then finally for those organisations that are redistributing devices it lends credibility to the concept of reuse having the charter setting out the you know the quality standards and also that how-to guide lends that credibility to the concept of reuse and so for redistributing organisations this I think this is going to come as a breath of fresh air and make them feel supported.

Emily Carr: So that is a very positive summary of what this charter is going to bring I wonder if you have other ideas about what more still needs to be done by government where are the gaps that remain and what are you hoping for from the future?

Natasha Early: I do think that we should take a moment to recognise and acknowledge how significant it is that UK government is making this charter a reality as far as we can tell this is the first charter of its kind anywhere in the world so we often talk about being world leading and this is something that we can you know we feel like we can really say that we’re leading the way we’re being pioneers and also from a Good Things Foundation perspective we’ve led the development of this charter with DSIT, with Vodafone UK, with Deloitte and many others that have formed part of that consultation because we believe it could be a game changer. We’ve kept saying to ourselves this could drive systemic change and that’s really really exciting.

What do we think needs to be done next? Well we are really interested in how government raises awareness and encourages businesses and public sector organisations to get on board. It’s one thing putting the charter up on a website it’s completely another to encourage businesses and organisations to engage with it so we’re hoping to see that continuous awareness raising encouragement, case studies, showing how it’s done that’s really what we would like to see and I guess that leads nicely on to the government building on its own pilot.

It’s great that they haven’t just said this is what you should do they’re also saying we’re seeing how we can do it and we’re hopeful that in the same way that the digital inclusion action plan is across multiple government departments that this pilot also takes hold and builds traction across other government departments and then I guess the final thing is you know how will government bake in digital inclusion and reuse of IT assets through things like the crown commercial service frameworks through net zero priorities and through its own departmental business as usual we’ve talked about that moving away from this being about donation and being about standard good practice and we believe that the government is taking those first steps and it will be fantastic to see them continue to make further strides in that direction.

Looking forward: what needs to happen next

Emily Carr: I think those areas Natasha mentioned really do sum up quite well what DSIT can and must really be doing to make those first early actions as impactful as they can be but when thinking more broadly about what comes next I think we do need to look beyond DSIT’s remit and there’s room for so much more progress there and our report back in January called on multiple different departments to act and I think a top line summary is that DSIT’s made some really great progress and other departments still need to step up and DEFRA and DESNA are two key players here.

First up DEFRA Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs they’re the ones with the power over how producers take responsibility for the environmental impact of their products so if they were to take action there’s a real opportunity to reform that extended producer responsibility system so that we can better support reuse and creating the right incentives to stop usable tech from being destroyed or setting up financing systems that you need to best support reuse organisations.

And secondly DESNZ (the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) have responsibility for product design standards and I think it’s logical that for reuse to really work you need to have devices getting built to last being made to be easy to repair and so DESNA’s need to be ambitious and bold in this space set those strong repair standards tackle planned obsolescence make sure spare parts and repair information are really easy to get and accessible to everyone including reuse charities.

So I think in answer to our sort of big question of what next for digital inclusion in the UK I do think there’s a lot still to come DSIT are going to be trying to make these first big actions that they’ve taken count and we and many others will be keeping pushing for for greater ambition across the whole of government to help ensure that reuse keeps on growing in the UK and I think we know what needs to happen and recent progress from DSIT shows that positive change and high level of ambition is possible it’s time now for for other departments really to just follow their lead.

---

Emily Carr: Thank you for listening to this episode. Keep checking in as we will continue to bring you specialist interviews and highlights from our events here on your podcast feed. You can subscribe on your favourite podcast app and you can follow us at Green Alliance UK on X and Green Alliance on LinkedIn and Bluesky. We encourage you to use the hashtag Green Alliance podcast to join in on this conversation and share thoughts, questions and ideas. See you next time.